This conference is like BOOM, BOOM, BOOM.
My fingers are getting tired!
Now Haven Herrin is up. She’s a co-director of SoulForce’s Equality Ride.
From their website:
Now traveling throughout the country, the Soulforce Equality Ride is taking 33 young adults on a seven-week bus tour to confront colleges that ban the enrollment of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students.
She’s talking about how their group went to Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University. 24 of 33 were arrested. But they still rode on.
SoulForce notified all the schools they were coming. It gave the schools a choice of whether or not to “deal” with them - because they were coming regardless. Most of the schools ended up having the members of Equality Ride as “uninvited guests” with only a few accepting them as “invited guests”.
The most powerful stop for her has been at Brigham Young University, a mormon school, where NO ONE is out. There they did a march on campus with lilies, symbolic of the fact suicide is so prevalent amongst gay mormons.
It must have been an amazing experience to come face to face with everything they did on their ride. Wow.
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OK, homosexuals don’t think sex male to male or female to female is a sin, but I wonder do you think killing, lying stealing, adultery, sex out of marriage are behaviors God tells us are sins? Please dialog with me, you are going to my son’s college uninvited to discuss/debate this so I come (even though uninvited) to your web site and expect a response. Thanks, An Upset Mom
WoW Lady, what have you got hiding in the closet? First of all if you have a child in college chances are he or she has already had a taste of the same sex, sex. Also , this GOD you speak of, well , not all of us believe in him as you do. My son is gay and I would not allow him to go near a catholic priest for fear that he could be raped, tell me these preists, are they reading the same bible you do? I would take a good look in your own back yard befor you critisize anyone, gay or not . And why , when you speak of homosexuality does the first thing that pops up in your head is sex? There are very productive gay people in this world just like there are very productive straight people in this world. There are also people like you so narrow minded and so out of touch with reality that it only makes us take two step backwards to every one step forward. You compare homosexuality to murder, adultery, stealing ect. and that makes ME an upset Mom.
Proud mom of gay son
I think the central flaw in An Upset Mom’s reasoning is the focus on “sin” rather forgiveness. Indeed, this focus belies the entrapment in her question: (1) sodomy is a sin; (2) murder is a sin; (3) how can you logically disagree with (1) while supporting (2)? Clever maneuvering, indeed, but it rests on an incomplete premise. Although I am not a biblical scholar by any means, the Book contains a litany of “thou shalt nots.” What AUM omits, however, is that the Book also contains the means to forgiveness. And that, friends, is the core of the issue. We may not all agree on what a “sin” is, but we should all be able to agree that, regardless of how one goes categorizing it, one should be forgiven for it. And that’s exactly what AUM should do - forgive and move on. Let me worry about my eternal soul, thanks very much.
Further, the statement that a group is going “uninvited” to debate underscores the obvious fear that debate would likely shed light on a discussion AUM would prefer not to have. I do credit her, however, with having the strength to post.
Finally, the son is at least 18. That means he can make his own decisions. Get over it.
Response to ANDREW–You make it sound like the reason your group is visiting the college campuses is to discuss forgiveness? why do any of us need to be forgiven for our sins ?What is the incomplete premise you suggest my “maneuvering’ rests on? In your evaluation, what means to forgiveness does the “Book” contain? What should I forgive? I can not get OVER IT because your agenda and pushing won’t let me! Yes, I know you can be forgiven. Who do you want to be forgiven by? and who should I forgive? (I have no reason to need to forgive you) why do you feel that your sexual identity/orientation etc. needs to be debated by anyone? let alone 25 different college campuses? The statement about being univited - well…. WAS soulforce invited to any of these campuses? My understnding is”no” and you just informed them… it seems to me as a threat, because you figure the college will get bad press if they say you can not visit ie. not tolerant, afraid to debate etc.. I do not support violence or unkindness towards homosexuals nor do I behave unkindly or violently towards homosexuals, but I also will not change my mind no matter how long you debate or present your theories that it is the way a person should live their life. My son has made his own decision and he agrees with me! RESPONSE to MOM- I am not a Catholic, so I do not have to look in my own back yard!!! I am NOT ctiticizing…I am debating!!!, that is soulforce’s goal….just because I do not agree with you mean I am criticizing? I’m sure you have many reasons to be proud of your son (as I do of mine). but your question about why the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about homosexuality is sex seems a really silly question. Upset Mom
Response to ANDREW–You make it sound like the reason your group is visiting the college campuses is to discuss forgiveness? why do any of us need to be forgiven for our sins ?What is the incomplete premise you suggest my “maneuvering’ rests on? In your evaluation, what means to forgiveness does the “Book” contain? What should I forgive? I can not get OVER IT because your agenda and pushing won’t let me! Yes, I know you can be forgiven. Who do you want to be forgiven by? and who should I forgive? (I have no reason to need to forgive you) why do you feel that your sexual identity/orientation etc. needs to be debated by anyone? let alone 25 different college campuses? The statement about being univited - well…. WAS soulforce invited to any of these campuses? My understnding is”no” and you just informed them… it seems to me as a threat, because you figure the college will get bad press if they say you can not visit ie. not tolerant, afraid to debate etc.. I do not support violence or unkindness towards homosexuals nor do I behave unkindly or violently towards homosexuals, but I also will not change my mind no matter how long you debate or present your theories that it is the way a person should live their life. My son has made his own decision and he agrees with me! RESPONSE to MOM- I am not a Catholic, so I do not have to look in my own back yard!!! I am NOT ctiticizing…I am debating!!!, that is soulforce’s goal….just because I do not agree with you mean I am criticizing? I’m sure you have many reasons to be proud of your son (as I do of mine). but your question about why the first thing that comes to my mind when I think about homosexuality is sex seems a really silly question. Upset Mom On now you are going to censor me!!????
I am delighted by the fact that you took the time to register on Mr. Justin’s predominantly gay-oriented website, Upset Momma. Well done in enrolling yourself in electronic queerdom!
Now, onto the merits! First, I am not a member of this group, I am merely a blog reader. Therefore, I can’t speak as to the group’s intentions, purpose, etc.
Second, with the previous caveat in mind, the purpose of the visits is understanding, not forgiveness. You’ll recall that your initial question was not “why do you show up at these schools,” but rather the “why don’t you think being gay isn’t a sin?” Try to stay focused on the issue at hand. I can understand how you are confused though, as it is often difficult to focus when hitting the SHIFT + 1 keys on a repetitive basis. Tsk, what would your English teachers think?
Third, I don’t have an agenda, nor does any other homosexual I know. If you’re going to talk about an organization, that’s a different thing, as organization’s, per the very definition of the term, are a gathering of individuals with a common purpose. Homosexuals just “are.” To be, or not to be, that is, sayeth the Bard, the question. I think the group in question very much wants to explain why they “are.”
Fourth, you apparently have no reason to forgive. Where is the compassion for fellow man, sister? Regardless, I am not seeking your forgiveness, but merely pointing out the one-sided focus of your initial postulate, based as it is on “sin”.
Fifth, this “Soulforce” group is a bit of a mystery, but you are presupposing some sort of conspiracy between the group at issue and the institution. Does this have any grounding in fact, or are you merely spitting out an allegation? If the former, then you have a point. If the latter, then you have virtually destroyed your credibility. Have you asked Soulforce if they have even tried going on campus? If not, then who is really to blame here?
Sixth, your rambling incohesiveness and aggressive use of punctuation belies your frustration. They make drugs for hypertension, you simply must take them. I am not sure why you are frustrated, as apparently your son is in full agreement with you. Therefore, what I would suppose to be the purpose of your initial posting - simply put, you homosexuals are corrupting my son - doesn’t apply. You are obviously a very compassionate person, but by your own terms - and I quote “why do you feel that your sexual identity/orientation etc. needs to be debated by anyone? ” - you really don’t believe there is a need to talk to us gays. Against that background, I can only speculate as to the true motive in your initial posting. Debate indeed.
Dear Mom. I think the problem with the entire idea is that you have chosen to take very specific elements of the bible (sodomy, homosexuality) to hold as issues. My question to you is, does that mean that everything in the bible is the word of God and must be obeyed? Because then you have to condone slavery, capital punishment, and a number of unspeakable acts because they, too, exist in the bible.
My issue is that you are trying to say that you either 1) believe in and adhere to the bible or 2) do not. But you yourself cannot possibly say that you adhere to these two possibilities. The fact is that the bible has been “interpreted” ever since it was first created. Interpreted by (predominantly) men (generally white as well) to reflect their viewpoints at that time. Even the Pope cannot possibly say that he believes the bible must be read as written.
As time changes, so do concepts of what God means for us. The original writers of the bible chose to include some scripture but not others. Modern church leaders choose to interpret the bible in their own fashion, leaving us with multiple religions claiming to be “Christian.” Consider this when you worry about whether your adult son should be confronted with gay men and women in a college setting. It is possible to be religious and gay; it is possible to be gay and Catholic. We each decide what is right for us and that is what we encourage debate on: the right to be (equally) ourselves.
There is a very good likelihood he’s already had same sex experience. What’s the prob. here?
Dear Upset Mom and Andrew,
I would like to get a few things straight (no pun intended). I feel like I can speak from a perspective to talk productively to you both. I was a member of the original Soulforce Equality Ride last year in 2006.
#1 The mission of Soulforce is NOT to debate. In fact, when we visited many schools, they decided to give us a forum to debate. We politely said, “no.” Debating whether our sexual orientation is wrong, immoral, sinful, or sick is no longer an issue to be put to debate. The sad truth is that that portions of the Christian community are very oppressive towards the GLBT population and using the Bible as a means to justify that….just as the Bible was used to justify unfair treatment to women and people of color. Our society got over that and eventually our society will get over this weird fear of gay people. There are GLBT people everywhere and we are born this way and created this way by God. It’s time to have a conversation, not a debate. This conversation is one that’s long over due. The fact that GLBT people are killing themselves and dying across this country because they are unable to reconcile their sexual orientation and their faith is alarming. This population of Evangelical Christian Fundamentalists must have this conversation and admit to the huge purple elephant in the room that no one is willing to talk about.
#2 I would like to correct Upset Mom in stating that all of these schools did not/are not inviting Soulforce. As a matter of fact, many of the schools this year and the MAJORITY of the schools we visited last year maturely and openly welcomed us on their campuses to engage in a day of academic freedom among their students, faculty, and staff. It continually confused me why a campus or individual would resort to arrest because of a fear to talk to a gay person.
#3 Upset Mom, I would like to ask you why you are so defensive about the topic of forgiveness? The GLBT community does not ask you or God or Jesus or anyone for forgiveness. The fact that I am gay does not warrant me asking for any type of forgiveness for a sin just as the fact that you are straight does not warrant you asking for forgiveness. I simply was created in God’s eyes with a homosexual orientation as you were created in God’s eyes with a heterosexual orientation. God does not make junk.
I hope these words were eloquent enough to have a few questions answered in your minds. Feel free to continue a response to this comment.
I don’t even know where to begin on this whole issue. I’m gay - I always have been - and it’s never going to change.
If you ask a straight man or woman to close their eyes and imagine lying naked in bed and kissing someone of the same sex, most of them would say, “NO WAY!” Well, that’s exactly how I am biologically coded. The thought of laying naked with a girl and being intimate with her grosses me out.
There is no choice - it’s an instant and gut reaction.
Do I think it’s wrong? How the hell could it be? It’s a person choice - I’m not hurting anyone by it - and it makes me happy to think about finding a guy to be with.
And who in the world determines what personal choices I make that affect my life alone are right and wrong?
If you answer the bible, you are ignorant. And don’t get super defensive on me. The bible was created by mankind, the same mankind that is eternally flawed. It was pieced together from multiple sources, rewritten, translated and retranslated. You know, somewhere in there some key language might just be off - it would explain the numerous contradictory statements you can find throughout any of the great religious books. They’re the words of men, not the word of some god. To put your faith in a book and not the spirit of the book is setting yourself up for your own fall from grace.
If religious people would put their faith in the spirit of the bible - peace, love, community, support, etc - life would be better for all of us. Instead of attacking gay people, we could all focus on our high infant mortality rates, our growing homeless population, on access to quality education and healthcare for all, and on and on.
But apparently “values” like “God Hates Fags” trump everything else.
Do I think that SoulForce should go to these anti-gay institutions? Yes. For the sole purpose of showing these kids that gay people are people too. Upset Mom and others will talk about gays “throwing their lifestyle in my face” but in reality we are living our lives and YOU are critiquing them - telling me I am “wrong”. We didn’t ask for your criticism, but by giving it to us you better expect a response.